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Old 03-26-05, 04:33 AM   #16
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Default Re: Aftermarket Engine Management And Boost Questions

LMAO

Joe:

I was going to tell you to ask Chris if he had a pic - he takes his truck apart a lot.... LOL

Just another reason to lose the "breadbox" upper.

Setting oil pressure.
I use an old pump, or a chunk of plate to make an air pressure adapter. Using compressed air, adjust the relief valve on the new pump to just open @ 55~60 psi. The cold oil pressure will be somewhat higher.

I looked for the info on the last turbo 300 I did. I found some notes, but I gave up on looking for the pictures. It was a while back (1979), and I used a Rajay E flow compressor with a .8 A/R ratio exhaust housing. We ran a Schneider cam, hydraulic grind # 131H. 112 degree LSA, and .460 lift.


I was looking over some flow maps, and interestingly enough - the stock turbo from a 7.3L Powersmoke Dismal is a pretty good match. Not perfect, but close enough if you want to play junkyard turbo.

Brad


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Old 03-27-05, 10:38 AM   #17
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Default Re: Aftermarket Engine Management And Boost Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by bohica2xo
Setting oil pressure.
I use an old pump, or a chunk of plate to make an air pressure adapter. Using compressed air, adjust the relief valve on the new pump to just open @ 55~60 psi. The cold oil pressure will be somewhat higher.
Don't happen to have any pictures of this do ya? cuze i just cant picture it im my mind how thats working i get that the air presure sets the Oil Presure, but the phisical asembley im lost on

Quote:
Originally Posted by bohica2xo
I looked for the info on the last turbo 300 I did. I found some notes, but I gave up on looking for the pictures. It was a while back (1979), and I used a Rajay E flow compressor with a .8 A/R ratio exhaust housing. We ran a Schneider cam, hydraulic grind # 131H. 112 degree LSA, and .460 lift.
Any word on how the powerband layed out?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bohica2xo
LMAO

Joe:

I was going to tell you to ask Chris if he had a pic - he takes his truck apart a lot.... LOL

Just another reason to lose the "breadbox" upper.
What kind of plenum volume should be taken into concideration? i know more volume will add spool time but i asume that to small would net a surge problem?

Oh and Thnaks for the heads up on the 7.3L Dismal as you called it turbo working fo my app

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Old 03-28-05, 04:02 AM   #18
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Default Re: Aftermarket Engine Management And Boost Questions

Joe:

Setting oil pressure relief.

It depends on the pump. If the relief valve is part of the pump cover, you can build a plate to bolt to the cover, which is tapped for a pipe fitting. Or you could block the pickup hole in an old pump, and tap the block feed hole for a pipe fitting.

If you are dealing with a pump has a relief valve in the body, you can usually make a couple of plates to bolt to the inlet and outlet - tap one for a pipe fitting. You can "c"clamp a block off plate on pumps with a pressed in pickup.

Just use your imagination, you can usually find a way to air-test an oil pressure relief valve. Even if it seems like a lot of work, it is a LOT less trouble and mess than dropping a pan to sort this out...


The powerband on that turbo 300 was stunning. It was in a light car - a Jaguar XKE. With a C-6 behind it, it would smoke the tires anytime you wanted to. With the govenor in the C-6 set to shift around 5200 at WOT, it seemed like it was still pulling as hard as ever when it shifted. I never got a chance to put the engine on the dyno before it went into the car, and back then chassis dynos were mostly for big trucks. I did put it on a 200 hp clayton chassis dyno, but it buried the dyno in second gear before we could open the secondaries on the carb.... we were asked to leave. A 2-3 shift above 4psi always resulted in a pair of short black marks, and a near lane change. At 12 psi, it felt like it was getting to the ground with 400+ horsepower. I lost touch with the kid I did that unit for years ago. It was a real sleeper. Last time I saw it driven was at the Ontario Motor Speedway - at a Cobra Club meet.


Plenum volumes.

The volume is important, but for good flow some basic rules always apply.

1) A MINUMUM of 2X the runner port diameter from the mouth to the top plate.

2) A MINIMUM of .5X the runner port diameter from the port edge to the wall of the box.


A little bigger won't hurt. If you feed it from one end, add about 20% to the volume. If you feed it from the side or top, feed it between runner ports. Do NOT line up the discharge with a port - if your setup works out this way (and there is no way on earth to change it), make the plenum taller, and add a deflector plate.


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Old 03-28-05, 05:20 PM   #19
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Default Re: Aftermarket Engine Management And Boost Questions

Ok Thanks for the info

Since im not after massive Boost i was thinking of going with the least amount piping needed so that would likely put the inlet around the on top around 2 or 3

for the volume: (Just want to check that I understand the math right)
say a port size of 2" would indicate no lower than 4", no narrower than 4"?

Would a thicker bottom plate be more beneficial when rounded to the port edge to improve flow pattern, like 3/4" bottom and the sides, ends, and top from 1/4"? Compared to 1/4" throughout?

Thanks Brad
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Old 03-28-05, 08:13 PM   #20
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Default Re: Aftermarket Engine Management And Boost Questions

Joe:

Yup, a 4 inch square would be a good minimum.

A generous radius on the runner mouth is necessary for good flow. A short "velocity stack" can be great, but difficult to fabricate (see attached photo). Those stacks were good for 19% on the flow bench in that manifold.

If you don't want to go to the extreme of the stacks, use a 3/4 inch bottom plate. That will be a HELL of a lot better than the runner mouth blend in the OEM breadbox.....

This is assuming an aluminum construction. If you go steel, then it will be easier to make the velocity stacks. it all depends on what materials and tools you have to work with.

Brad
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Old 03-28-05, 08:47 PM   #21
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Default Re: Aftermarket Engine Management And Boost Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by bohica2xo
If you don't want to go to the extreme of the stacks, use a 3/4 inch bottom plate. That will be a HELL of a lot better than the runner mouth blend in the OEM breadbox.....

This is assuming an aluminum construction. If you go steel, then it will be easier to make the velocity stacks. it all depends on what materials and tools you have to work with.

Brad
Thanks Brad

Ya Aluminum is what i am going to go with, and when the head is done up im going to have them grind the port/intake to match the gasket.

i'm thinking i'd like to give the intake design and build a shot myself (although i will have to farm out the welding).

any sugestions on how to radius the ports with comon tools? or would it be beter of to have someone with a CNC or milling machine do it so there all exactly the same?

i haven't got alot of tools but i dont mind picking up stuff if its not killer costly and i will get some use from it lol


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Old 03-28-05, 09:07 PM   #22
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Default Re: Aftermarket Engine Management And Boost Questions

Joe:

The old MKI eyeball and a radius gauge is all you need. Just work slowly, and check the radius at several spots around the port. You can use a die grinder and a coarse burr to rough them in. Use beeswax on the burr to keep it from loading up. Finish things with abrasive cartridge rolls, or a file if you have the time. A flapper wheel can be helpful too.

The CNC would be a waste of time - I doubt the port runners are all the same either.

The stock bolts enter through the bottom of the lower manifold, so you will need to drill & tap the 3/4 inch plate for the mounting bolts. Once the plate is completely finished, it can be welded to the plenum box. That and a nipple for the turbo output, and you are set.

Injectors mount in the stock location, and all of that plumbing is OEM.

For the throttle body, I would look at a mustang or explorer unit, mounted on the turbine inlet.....


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Old 03-28-05, 09:57 PM   #23
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Default Re: Aftermarket Engine Management And Boost Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by bohica2xo
Joe:

The old MKI eyeball and a radius gauge is all you need. Just work slowly, and check the radius at several spots around the port. You can use a die grinder and a coarse burr to rough them in. Use beeswax on the burr to keep it from loading up. Finish things with abrasive cartridge rolls, or a file if you have the time. A flapper wheel can be helpful too.
Great

Quote:
Originally Posted by bohica2xo
The CNC would be a waste of time - I doubt the port runners are all the same either.
:eek: your not inplying that ford slacked a little are ya

Quote:
Originally Posted by bohica2xo
The stock bolts enter through the bottom of the lower manifold, so you will need to drill & tap the 3/4 inch plate for the mounting bolts. Once the plate is completely finished, it can be welded to the plenum box.
Sweet i have them tools (aside from the welder)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bohica2xo
That and a nipple for the turbo output, and you are set.

Injectors mount in the stock location, and all of that plumbing is OEM.

For the throttle body, I would look at a mustang or explorer unit, mounted on the turbine inlet.....


.
Nipple? is that what your calling the inlet for the intake?

what kind of clearace is betwen the port edge and the injectors/rail? just wondering what the max width i have to work with is

kind of go's with the nipple question... your talking about having the compresor in vacuum when the TB is closed? and in doing this it will eliminate the need for a BOV ont he standard trans yes?

i was thinking that a nipple on the back of the plenum would be a good spot for the boost gauge reading, keep it hidden and the compartment looking less cluterd. would this be a good spot for the MAP to get its reading aswell?

that is if the MAP sensor is the one i have pictured in my mind having just a line that vents it to the intake for its reading

Thanks
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Old 03-29-05, 03:08 AM   #24
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Default Re: Aftermarket Engine Management And Boost Questions

Joe:

Yes, I would run the turbine in vaccuum. A BOV is a great waste of time on a street car, even worse on a truck. Running the turbine into vaccuum keeps it spooled up between shifts. It also keeps it unloaded at part throttle cruise.

I would just use a short piece of silicone rubber tubing to couple the compressor discharge to the plenum.

The tap for the MAP sensor should be on the plenum, anywhere but directly opposite the compressor discharge. Pick up the vaccuum for the power brakes at the throttle body.


Because the insides of the runners are formed by a sand 'core' during casting, they are subject to many small defects. I think the runner shape at the upper/lower mating flange is somewhat oval. You will need to match that oval on each runner. Use a 5/8 inch radius, on a 3/4 inch plate.

The injectors are down at the head. All I would do to the manifold at the head is a careful gasket match, along with the same treatment on the head.


As poor as the cast EFI manifold is, it runs a LOT better than the old 1bbl carb. Adding forced induction will really wake things up.


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Old 03-29-05, 03:58 AM   #25
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Default Re: Aftermarket Engine Management And Boost Questions

i'm going to have to pick up the lower soon then i can figure out exactly how i want the plemum, and start on that

since its sand core formed would a polish job inside the lower help it flow better, or be a silly waste of my time?

Thanks for the info Brad
Joe

oh and just to compair the space between the current EFI engien comprtment to the Carbed for anyone thats folowing this lol

oh and a on a side note back in the fall i was busy taking anything out that wasn't being used and came acrost a MAP semsor bolted down to the rear of the celinoyd (sp???) with 20 years worth of grime on it i haven't a clue as to why it was there since the truck has always had a carb lol
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Old 03-29-05, 03:26 PM   #26
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Default Re: Aftermarket Engine Management And Boost Questions

Joe:

A flapper wheel on a long shank will clean up the warts & pimples inside the runners. Same goes for the head. Just smooth the surface a bit, leaving some of the as-cast texture is ok.

a MAP sensor in an '85 does not sound right, it might be just a simple vaccuum switch for the early emissions controls. Hard to say what was delivered in Canada though.

I will have to take some pics of my porting tools for you. Do you have a decent air compressor?


Brad


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Old 03-29-05, 04:42 PM   #27
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Default Re: Aftermarket Engine Management And Boost Questions

No our air compressor can fill a tire its just an old ~2hp direct drive 9gal devblis (sp??) but a decnt compressor is on the top of my "Tools To Get" list lol
i looked at a few last year localy but they were all single stage, i'd like to get a dual stage so i can run any tool needed and not have to wait on the compressor

i will go pull the part number off the MAP, but when i pulled it out the first think it reminded me of was the one i replaced in a 89 Topaz W/2.3L HSC (or is it HCS?) as lit looked exactly the same Hmm i think i still have the old topaz part around too lol .... something for me to do today lol

Kool i like picutures

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Old 03-30-05, 03:33 AM   #28
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Default Re: Aftermarket Engine Management And Boost Questions

Dang missed the edit window

Map PN# E43F-9F479-BIA

and just for the hell of it my trans codes are(in oerder from top to bottom)
13
RF E4TR-7006AA
G2604877
23H8 4b440T-2
and the Ford oval
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Old 04-28-05, 01:45 AM   #29
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Default Re: Aftermarket Engine Management And Boost Questions

know of anyone that makes a decent forged piston for the 300 that will net the needed compression ratio?

i sent an e-mail off to the engine place in Kingston tonight about the head work

trying to sort out where im going to get all the parts for this from and stuff, the more i think about it the longer the list grows but thatís ok.

was thinking hte other day what am i going to do about the vacumm advance on the dist then i remember that i won't need the dist so thats a silly thought

anyways pistons is tonights topic, and who has them

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Old 04-28-05, 10:42 AM   #30
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Default Re: Aftermarket Engine Management And Boost Questions

Joe:

The evil terms of "lean manufacturing" & "JIT" have invaded the hot rod parts business like the plague they are.....

I used to be able to get blower pistons "off-the-shelf" for many engines.... now they are "custom" for a big block ford! fuck.

You have several choices:

ROSS Pistons - I have used Ross pistons, and been happy with the quality. Ross will run a set of forged pistons for the 4.9 with low compression for less than 600 USD.

ARIAS Pistons - practically everybody in the racing world has some experience with Arias. Good stuff, but probably more money than Ross - contact them for a quote.

JE Pistons - JE made my favorite pistons for turbocharging the 460 ford. I recently tried to order a set, only to find that now they are a "special" - they still make them, but do not keep them on the shelf, or in the catalog. The price was 650 bucks for a set. I suspect they still make the blower piston for the 4.9, contact them for a quote.


Forged pistons are not voodoo or magic - they just machine the blank forging to your needs. If you tell a manufacturer the specs, they should be able to provide what you need. Make sure you measure the head cc's, and the deck height of the block you will be using. Have them run the pistons for a tight quench (usually .040 ~ .060) and the low compression. With the big dish in the piston, valve clearance should not be an issue. I would not hesitate to go as low as 7.2:1 - you can always pump up the pressure, and if you turn the boost down you can run garbage gas....


.


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